Difficulty of Defending Clueless Christians

When atheists say Christians are dumb, I try to defend Christians as much as possible. However I’ve seen some really stupid Christians out there it’s becoming increasingly difficult to defend them . I Just finished  debating with a so called Christian that shared a meme that says Mary’s birth was unplanned and that’s why Christians should be pro life. I don’t want to embarrass the person more than he already has to himself so I’ll just call him MC. Here’s the meme and  how the conversation went:

Clement LI: I’m Pro life, and I think this is dumb. Whoever created this or believe Mary’s birth was unplanned knows very little about scripture.

MC: Read the previous comments – from a human point of view, it was unplanned. Mary certainly didn’t plan it. When Gabriel announced what was going to happen it was a huge surprise.

Clement LI: Unplanned pregnancy means a couple has sexual intercourse without intention of having a child but the female becomes pregnant.

There was no sexual intercourse involved here, Jesus was planned since the fall of man , and Mary was told she would bear the child. Hence, it wasn’t unplanned.

Human point of view? Why would I look at it from a human point of view when I can just look in scriptures and see it in God’s point of view?

MC: Unplanned pregnancy means it was unplanned – which for Mary it was. You are way over analysing a simple message.

Clement LI: I know unplanned pregnancy means unplanned. Except in this case it was planned. There were plenty of prophecies about Jesus in the old Testament, Isaiah 7:14 even told us it was going to be a virgin birth. God planned it, therefore it was planned.

No I’m not over analyzing anything. You’re the one suggesting that I should look at it from a human point of view. The bible is quite easy to understand, whatever God says that’s what God means, and God says it was planned. Therefore it was planned

MC: A woman not thinking about having a baby becomes pregnant. She did not plan for it to happen. Of course God planned it, but that is not the point of the message.

Clement LI :So you’re saying because God planned it, it was still considered unplanned because the woman was surprised? Have you ever considered that she was  surprised because virgins usually don’t give birth?

And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus (Luke 1 :31-33)

The angel told her she WILL become pregnant. She could of said no if she wanted to. God planned to have a virgin birth, and Mary happened to be chosen to bear the child. She accepted, therefore it was planned.

MC: OK sure, so technically it was unexpected, rather than unplanned; but no one talks about unexpected pregnancies, so that would defy the point of the message. This is not about Biblical accuracy, it’s a simple message about the value of all pregnancies & all babies.

Clement LI: It was planned by God. So it was planned. What part of planned-by-God did you not understand? And yes, it is about biblical accuracy. The bible says the birth of Jesus was planned yet you say it wasn’t. You’re pretty much asking us to believe you’re more accurate than the bible because you look at it from ” a human point of view”.

MC: OK, so this particular message doesn’t speak to you, that’s fine. It does speak to other people.

Clement LI: And what message is that? The meme you shared isn’t even biblical and completely false. You’re going to debate someone who is pro-choice by showing them a false message and lying about what the Bible actually says? good luck with that

Response to the Holy Quran Experiment

Someone sent me this video and I thought it was interesting, but at the same time it’s sad to see how  ignorant some “Christians”  are when it comes to the bible itself.

For the record, I have pulled an experiment similar to this on other Christians before just to test how strong their faith is. If you call yourself a “christian” and you don’t familiarized yourself with the bible and can’t defend your faith, then your faith is weak, and I actually question if you can be consider a “Christian” at all.

All the verses mentioned in this video (except the one about about not permitting women to speak in a church) were all from the old testament. It’s shocking how many so called “Christians” still believe we follow the laws of the old testament. If you actually read the bible, in the book of Hebrews 8:7-13 it tells you that we are under the new covenant, and in in Galatians 3:13 it tells us that we are no longer under the curse of the law.

The one about not permitting women to speak in the church is taken from 1 Corinthians 14:34, and the context there is about church leadership. Yes, the bible actually forbids women being pastors and that’s the way it should be.

As you can see at the end of the video, all of them admit they weren’t aware these verses were in the bible, so they clearly did not familiarized themselves with the word of God and were weak in their faith. One of them even said they went to Christian school when they were a child. Unfortunately the majority of Churches and Christians schools these days have become nothing more than a joke that portrays God as some kind of loving cuddly teddy bear. Our God is a loving God but at the same time he is just and he can be harsh.

What happened to 2 Chronicles 19:2?

And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to King Jehoshaphat, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you.

What happened to Psalm 21:8-9?

Your hand will find all Your enemies;
Your right hand will find those who hate You.

You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;
The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath,
And the fire shall devour them.

What happened to Matthew 22:43-44

He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’saying:

‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”

What Happened to James 4:4

 
Adulterers andfn adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

If you show these verses to an average Christian today, a lot of them won’t know it comes from the bible. This is because Churches don’t teach them anymore  which is a problem. This is why you get a bunch of people calling themselves Christians but have no idea what God is like.  You want to know why so many people don’t fear God anymore? it’s because many Churches these days portray him as a cute cuddly cartoon character.

I am aware that you can argue saying “The point is, people can read a religious book and take it out of context” (Usually it’s “Christians” who say this) . You can defend these terrorists saying “they took the words in the quran out of context”. Fair enough, but if you argue that these people took it out of context, then I invite you to explain the context to me. However if you can’t explain it or you never actually read the Quran, then your opinion is irrelevant and useless.

Does Irresistible Grace Make the Gospels Meaningless?

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

What is Irresistible Grace?

First  let keep in mind the word “Grace” appears 170 time in the Bible in 159 verses, and in none of those verses does it say anything about it being irresistible.

The idea of Irresistible grace originated from Calvinism. Calvinists believes that since we are dead to sin that means we are totally deprived and unable to do anything spiritually good. As Tim Keller said “human beings, given a hundred chances, a thousand chances, an infinite number of chances, will always – because their desires are such – will always choose to be their own lord and saviour and they’ll never choose Jesus“.

This is why Calvinist believes grace has to be imposed on us. However contrary to what Calvinism teaches,the Bible tells us that people who are dead to sin can still seek out the Lord (Luke 2:10) and it’s our responsibility to accept his Grace (Act 16:31).  

I received many angry comments for saying irresistible grace is imposing grace (which if you think about it isn’t grace at all).  This is how John Piper describe irresistible Grace:  “God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when he wills…irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our hearts and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved”[2].  When I show Calvinists this quote , they always try to argue saying that this isn’t imposing and it’s just saying that when God is tries to convince people to believe in Him, he is always successful.  This is another belief from many Calvinists that has no biblical basis. Throughout the Bible, there are plenty of examples of God trying to convince people to turn away from sin yet they do not.

In Matthew 23:37 Jesus says “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem the one who kills the prophets and stones those  who  are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing”.  Here we have Jesus telling us that many prophets were sent to Israel to save them but clearly they rejected them.  This verse alone should make it clear that Grace is resistible. However I have received some strange statements such as “those people who rejected him weren’t part of the elect” . This is a foolish ,in Jeremiah 3:21 it says “A voice was heard on the desolate heights, Weeping and supplications of Israel. For they have perverted their way; They have forgotten the Lord their God” . If God never had any intention to save these people who rejected him (or the unelected) then why would he be weeping? Or are we suppose to believe that God’s feelings were insincere?

The simple truth is that without the idea of “Irresistible Grace” the rest of TULIP and Calvinism would fall apart.  In fact the idea of Irresistible Grace clearly contradicts the Bible which shows examples of people resisting God’s Grace:

John 5:31-47 tells us the story of witnesses who heard God’s word but choose not to accept it. Romans 1:21-22 says “because , although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened”. I’ve heard many Calvinists  argue that they rejected his grace because they weren’t part of the elect, if you use that argument however , you just contradicted yourself. Also if people who weren’t part of the elect and God had no intention of saving them, what was the point of Jesus witnessing to them ( John 5:3-47)?Are we suppose to believe that Jesus was just mocking them?

A Closer look at John 6:26-37:

Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. ²⁷ Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

²⁸ Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

²⁹ Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

³⁰ Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? ³¹ Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”^[d]

³² Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. ³³ For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

³⁴ Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

³⁵ And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. ³⁶ But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. ³⁷ All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

A few of my Calvinist friends has sent me this passage and asked me to explain why these people didn’t believe in Christ. The most common statement I get is “God haven’t opened their eyes” or “These people weren’t part of the elected to receive irresistible Grace”. However this is untrue and nowhere in the scriptures does it imply or hints this.

Remember when we are reading the Bible we can’t take a few verses and make a conclusion.  If you start at the beginning of John 6 it tells us the story of Jesus feeding the five thousands (1-15). After this miraculous event it would  not be surprising that a lot of people would follow and seek Jesus. However like verse 26 Jesus says “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled”.  What Jesus is trying to tell us is that these people  were only seeking Him because they wanted more  physical bread, they didn’t believe in Him, they were seeking Him for their own personal benefits, Jesus tells us this in verse 36 saying “But I said you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe”. It has nothing to do with God not opening their eyes or Jesus “unveiling the curtains”, these people clearly saw the works of God through Jesus (his grace) yet  by their own choice they didn’t believe.  Interestingly, in John 6:51 it says “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world”. Remember that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:22) so none of us deserves this bread, he is giving it to us as a gift, that’s called grace. Nowhere does it say it’s irresistible, God is not shoving the bread down our throats.

Revisiting John 10: Who are the sheep?

As I mentioned in my last article about limited atonement, the sheep in the Sheppard’s fold are those who believes in Jesus( verse 2-3). Since he is the Sheppard it makes sense that we are the sheep. Now the question is does Jesus call the unbelievers sheep? Absolutely, there are many times in scripture where God refers the lost and faithless people as sheep. A few passages include  Matthew 9:36 “But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd”.  Jeremiah 50:6 “My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place”. In fact, the whole chapter of Luke 15 talks about the lost sheep, and despite the fact that they’re lost, they are still considered his sheep. Nowhere does it says they were “elected to be lost”.  John 10:14-15 says “ I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the fathers Knows Me, even so I know my Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep”.  We must remember that when someone dies, and they end up in hell, they have no excuse, they can’t say “I’ve never heard of Jesus”, Romans 1:20 makes this clear saying “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by things that are made, even His Eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse“.  So in John 10:14 when Jesus says “I know My sheep, and am known by My own” he is referring to everyone.  In John 10:16 it says “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd”. Calvinists need to read this verse more carefully, and not just that, they have to acknowledge that “hearing” and “obeying” is completely different. Yes, every sheep (everyone) will hear about the gospel, but nowhere in this passage does it say everyone will obey and follow.  In fact there are a few passages in the Bible that tells us people not following or obeying after hearing the word of God, some examples include the Pharaoh in Exodus, King Herod (Mark 6:14-30), John 6:60-71 tells us that some of Jesus’ followers turned away after hearing his message. So it’s clear that many have heard the Gospel, but not everyone will believe it, hence this is not irresistible Grace

A closer look at Romans 3:10-18

¹⁰ As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
¹¹ There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
¹² They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”^[a]
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; ^[b]
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; ^[c]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”^[d]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
¹⁶ Destruction and misery are in their ways;
¹⁷ And the way of peace they have not known.”^[e]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”^[f]

 

Romans 3:9-18 tells us what kind of hearts we have.  Most of the Calvinist that I’ve encountered always brings up verse 12 and says it’s teaching total depravity and since none seeks after God he must use Irresistible Grace.  However if you read these verses carefully you’ll find two things that are not there. First, there is nothing here about salvation, and secondly there is nothing here about lacking the ability to have faith in Jesus. In fact, if you continue reading on from verse 21-26 it teaches exactly how you can be righteous and saved.  The key verse is 22 and it says “even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference”. Yes we are sinful people and sin prevents us from having a relationship with God (Romans 3:12) but everybody has the ability to have faith in Jesus (Romans 3:22), and the scriptures repeatedly tells us that all we have to do is believe in Him (John 3:16, Act 16:31, Romans 10:9)

Irresistible Grace Makes the Gospel Meaningless

What is the point of the Gospel? According to Jude 3 it’s to bring people to faith:

 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

We have to remember that Grace is a gift from God, NOT faith. Nowhere in the scriptures does it suggest that God believes for us. If grace is something God just imposes on us and force us to believe, then the gospel is meaningless and your faith is meaningless. 1 Peter 1:7 says “ that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ”. If you already have Irresistible Grace and Calvinist believes that you can never lose this Grace (Perseverance of the Saints), then what is the point of having your faith tested like Peter said?

C.H Spourgeon  writes “a man who is regenerated…is saved already…it is…ridiculous…to preach Christ to him.”[3]. Here we have C.H Spourgeon admitting that the gospels are meaningless to the people who are “regenerated”, If you believe that God already imposed his Grace on people then why share the Gospel to them at all?

Of course you can say you don’t believe in everything C.H Spurgeon says, or you don’t believe everything John Calvin said, but if you know they have flaws in their theology, why would you believe in anything at all?

You can say you don’t believe in everything John Calvin says such as “Those therefore whom God passes by He reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children.” [4]. However if you disagree with Calvin, yet you still call yourself a Calvinist, then you’re pretty much saying that you understand Calvinism better than the person who founded the ideology. Please enlighten me how that is possible?

Is God giving Satan a Vacation?

From Genesis to Revelations , God continuously warns us about the devil:

 Be sober, be vigilant; because^[a] your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)

 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (Revelations 2:10)

 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelations 12:9)

If God is withholding his “irresistible grace” and only giving to a elected few, then he is doing a much better job at damning souls than Satan ever could.  If I was the devil I would be enjoying my long vacation right about now.

Conclusion

In the end we have to remember Jesus is offering his grace to us (John 3:16), It is our job to accept it and ours alone (Act 16:31) and it is definitely NOT irresistible (John 1:11)

[1] http://timkeller.info/other/excerpts/

[2] John Piper, “tulip,”/9.

[3] C. H. Spurgeon, “The Warrant of Faith” (Pasadena, TX: Pilgrim Publications, 1978), 3. [one-sermon booklet from 63-volume set].

[4] John Calvin, “Institutes,” 3:23:1

The Doctrine of Election: A Response To Timothy Keller

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved

In 2009 Timothy Keller held a talk at Creek Leadership Summit. One of the topics that came up was the doctrine of election. The following are  transcripts of Timothy Keller’s talk and my response. You can find the audio at this link:

http://www.redeemer.com/static/audio.php mp3=http://download.redeemer.com/rpcsermons/QandA/What_is_the_doctrine_of_Election.mp3

Let take a look at the problems with his theology:

First Point

Here’s the first problem. You notice how he doesn’t provide one single bible verse? Not one! If you’re going to be teaching theology that is supposedly from the bible shouldn’t it be backed up by the bible? Secondly, instead of saying “I’ll tell you what it is” why doesn’t he tell us what the bible says it is?  Granted, that he only had a few minutes, but how long does it take to reference scripture? He could of just said what book, chapter and verse teaches that and that would of took about two seconds. If you don’t support your theology with scripture, then your theology is irrelevant.

Does the bible teach about predestination and election? yes, and it comes from Romans 8:29:

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren”.

This verse says teaches us that Christians will be conformed to the image of his Son, it doesn’t say or hint anything about predestined to be saved before we were born.

Ephesians 1:11 also teaches us about predestination as well as election, and the passage says

“In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will”.

If you read this verse alone it may sound like it’s talking about predestined salvation. However when you’re reading the bible you can’t take one verse and jump to conclusion. If you look at the word “works” here it’s a present active tense, not a past tense. That means God Continues to work in us. If you continue reading on this passage, it’ll tell you who these “elected” people are. Verse 12 and 13 says:

 “that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”. 

Timothy Keller says

all human beings, given hundreds of chances, a thousands chances, and infinite number of chances, will always- because their desire are such will always choose to be their own lord and saviour and they’ll never choose Jesus

Where in the bible does it  say this? This sounds like ‘total depravity” which the bible doesn’t support. Last I remember Phillip and Nathaniel chose Jesus and it never said anything about them being predestined to choose Jesus (John 1:43-51). Again if you can’t support your theology with scripture then it becomes irrelevant.

Next, Keller says

he(God) opens the eyes of some so they’ll see the truth, but he doesn’t open the eyes of everybody.

 Nowhere in the bible does it teach or support this. Maybe this is why Keller doesn’t tell us to look into the scripture. If you actually read the bible however and turn to 1 Timothy 2:4 it tells you that God “desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth“. Are we really suppose to believe that God desires all men to come to the knowledge of truth but doesn’t give them the sight to see it? Believing in Jesus is not based on blind faith but his works (John 10:36-38).

Second Point:

Timothy Keller says

If you wrestle with the doctrine of election a little longer, it creates a problem, which was always there and you didn’t see it.

Wait, did he just admit that there is a problem with his doctrine yet he’s still defending it and preaching it? Or worse, is he trying to tell us there is a problem with the bible?

He continues saying

if you believe that years ago, in the beginning of time God said “I see that human race is going to sin. So here’s what I’m going to do: I’m going to go out and save a quarter of them”.

One thing I do agree with Timothy Keller is that this sounds awful. Thankfully God never said this or anything remotely close to it and in fact the total opposite as you can see in scriptures:

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.(1 Timothy 2:4)

“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance“. (2 Peter 3:9).

third point:

I’m not sure how the first sentence even make sense or where in the bible does it say that. Humans had free will long before Jesus was born:

“If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel,You shall be devoured by the sword”;For the mouth of the LORD has spoken“. (Isaiah 1:19-20)

Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the keeper of the East Gate, was over the freewill offerings to God, to distribute the offerings of the LORD and the most holy things“. (2 Chronicles 31:14)

“When leaders lead in Israel,When the people willingly offer themselves,Bless the LORD“! (Judges 5:2)

“Afterwards they offered the regular burnt offering, and those for New Moons and for all the appointed feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and those of everyone who willingly offered a freewill offering to the LORD“. (Ezra 3:5)

The bible has numerous examples of people having free will before and after Jesus was born so how can anyone say or believe that God gave us free will only after he sent his son? Keller continues

But since he’s God, he immediately knows who is going to believe, and who’s not. So in other words, either way, you have an action of God, that in depths of time, automatically consigns some people to heaven and some people to hell. So you’re in the same boat. Because here’s the issue: God looks like he can save everybody, but he doesn’t save everybody. Why? And here’s the funny thing. Nobody’s go the answer for that. Nobody. And Everybody has got the same problem.

No Mr. Keller, just because you don’t have an answer that doesn’t mean nobody has it. in fact you answered your own question and for some reason didn’t even realize it. Like you said, people who believe in Him are saved and people who don’t are not (John 3:18). You contradicted yourself saying “in depths of time, automatically consigns some people to heaven and some people to hell”. First you tell people that those who believe will go to heaven and those who don’t will go to hell, then you say this is done in the depths of time. How in the world is someone suppose to believe or not believe before they existed?

fourth point:

Keller again ask how do you get out of the problem of election and ask why he saves some but not others. Simple, you read the scriptures carefully. We are saved not because we believe in predestination or not, we are saved if we believe in Jesus and condemned if we don’t and the scripture supports this in John 3:18:

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”.

The doctrine of election is not about God opening our eyes to be able to choose him. The doctrine of election is that those who believe in him will be conformed to the image of his son (Romans 8:29) and those who believe in him, God will use them to serve his purpose (Ephesians 1:11)

Again some people are saved because they believe and some don’t because they don’t, so there is no problem.

fifth point:

Let take a look at the first paragraph and then the third paragraph. In the first paragraph Keller says predestination is not the problem but then in the third paragraph he says “Predestination has all kinds of other problems”. So are we suppose to believe that it has problems are not? Keller continues to say

If you, In order to get rid of those so-called problems, decide “I believe that everybody has a equal chance, and there’s free will, and I don’t believe in predestination” I think in the end you have more problems..

Okay so what are you trying say? that the bible has problems? Isn’t the bible suppose to be the true word of God and the true word of God can have no errors and contradictions let alone “problems’?

In the second paragraph, Keller tells us that that he believes in predestination because the bible is “strong” about it, but why doesn’t he provide any passages for us to verify? Possibly because Keller is strong about it and not the bible?

The reason why Keller thinks the doctrine of election has problems is because he doesn’t understand it. Keller’s doctrine of election is clearly not from scripture hence probably why he doesn’t provide one single verse to support his theology and that’s why it “monkeys” with his understanding of Salvation by faith.

sixth point:

This is absurd. So if we study the the doctrine of election we lose our innocence? I always thought we lose our innocence because we sin (Romans 3:23). The bible clearly teaches the doctrine of election so what exactly is Keller trying to say? that studying the bible is a sin? or we should  ignore the parts that it teaches about election? this really wouldn’t surprise me since a lot of Calvinists are known to do the exact.

The problem I find with pastors today (Not just Calvinists) is they preach with a faulty foundation, that is they don’t understand Jesus and his theology at all. If you don’t understand Jesus who should be the foundation of our faith then everything else you preach is useless(1 Corinthians 3:9-11). It’s like house with a cracked foundation, you can dress up the house as nice and beautiful as you can but in the end if doesn’t have a stable foundation the house is useless.

Limited Atonement: An Insult to God?

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

“The Bible teaches again and again that God does not love all people with the same love…‘loved by God’ is not applied to the world but only to the saints”...(Romans 1:7)-Edwin Palmer [1]

Does anyone else find this quote absolutely hilarious like I do? First, let look at what Romans 1:7 actually says:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”.

Edwin Palmer apparently thought that because Paul said God loves his saints so he must not love anyone else. Taking that same analogy I guess if I tell someone that God loves me that must mean he doesn’t love anyone else? In fact Galatians 2:20  says “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me”. I guess if you’re a Calvinist you can throw away your bibles now since this must mean that God only loved Paul.

This is one of the problems with churches and Christians today, they read one verse and jump to conclusion. This is not how the bible was meant to be read. One example is John 6:44 which says “No one can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” or verse 65 that says “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father”. When you read these two verses it seems like it’s talking about  Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace. However If you read the whole chapter especially from verse 25-38 it actually explains that the people that God grants to be with Jesus are the ones who accepted and ate the bread of heaven that God provided (Verse 32-33). From verse 37 to 40, “all that the fathers give me will come to me” are the ones who believe in God and already accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour.  There is nothing about unconditional election here. The condition here is that you have to believe in God and like the passage said “eat the bread of heaven”. The topic of Irresistible Grace will be touched upon in a later article.

Unfortunately this is difficult for Calvinist to understand because they believe in “total depravity” where they claim that someone who is spiritually dead  cannot seek God or do anything spiritually good for themselves.  Many Calvinist unfortunately believe “dead to sin” and “dead” means the same thing, this is untrue and in Luke 15:32 which talks about the parable of the lost son it says “…for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found” . Clearly this means he was spiritually dead, not physically dead, and even being dead to sin the lost son was still able to find his way back to the father. It doesn’t say anywhere that God elected him to find his way back.

Now the question is, did Jesus die for the sins of everyone? In John 1:29 it says “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” in John 3:17 it says “ For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved”.  The bible sates it clearly that God sent his son to die for the world. There’s nothing here about dying only for the elect.

However, Calvinist such as Edwin Palmer believes that he only died for a selected few hence in his book “five points” he writes “Christ not only shed His blood, He also spilled it. He intended to save all, but only some will be saved. Therefore, some of His blood was wasted: it was spilled”[2].

I often wonder how Edwin Palmer can even call himself a Christian, and this is why I don’t believe Calvinists are Christians. How can someone who calls themselves a Christian,  who knows that Jesus was flogged, tortured, and crucified on the cross  believe that his blood was “wasted”. This is an insult to God, Christ and every Christian that ever existed.

R.C Sproul writes “The world for whom Christ died cannot mean the entire human family. It must refer to the universality of the elect (people from every tribe and nation)”.[3].

Really? Says which part of what scripture?

This is the major problem I find with Calvinist, they either don’t support their theology with scripture or they take verses and twist it to fit their own false theology. For example John Calvin quotes Augustine saying:

“I say with Augustine, that the Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed. Why he willed it is not ours to ask, as we cannot comprehend, nor can it become us even to raise a controversy as to the justice of the divine will. Whenever we speak of it, we are speaking of the supreme standard of justice [4] (Institutes 3.23.5).

Two  problems with this statement. First of all, Augustine’s writings are not part of scripture,  and secondly nowhere in the bible does it say God willed someone to destruction.

But wait, what about Matthew 26: 28 where it says “For this is my blood of the new covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins” and Matthew 20:28 where it says “Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom of many”.?Calvinist love to use these two verses to try and support their theology of limited atonement. Have they ever considered that the total population of the world consisted of “many” people and so it’s necessary to use the word “many”? If you really believe Jesus didn’t die for all because the scripture used the word “many” instead of “all”, then let go back to Galatians 2:20 again which says “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave Himself to me”. If you’re a Calvinist, then I have to ask you, why didn’t Paul say “gave himself to the world”? why did he say “gave himself to me”? I guess since Paul didn’t say “all” that means Jesus must of died for Paul only? Wow, that’s a little depressing, guess we’re all doomed. Thankfully our God is a merciful God who sent his son to save the world (John 3:16) and desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)

Two other verses that Calvinists uses to support their limited atonement theology are John 10:11 and verse  15.  John 10:11 says “I am the good Sheppard. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep” and verse 15 that says “As the father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep”. At first I couldn’t understand how Calvinists got the idea of limited atonement from these two verses, but I guess it goes back to why Jesus didn’t use the word “all”.

Sheep as most Christians know are us and those who are part of his fold are the followers of Christ, and just because Christ is saying he’s laying down his life for his fold of sheep, it doesn’t mean he didn’t die for the rest of the sheep that are not in his fold.  In fact in verse 16 it says “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring , and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one Sheppard”. The same with John 17:9 where it says “ I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours”. Just because Jesus happens to praying for his disciples at that time it doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about the rest of the world. That idea would be absurd especially since there are numerous passages in the bible that tells us that Jesus loves everyone.

Nowhere in the bible does it teach or even hints that God sent his son to die only for the elected. The concept of limited atonement is not biblical. few of the many problems I see with Christians today is that they rely too much on commentaries from scholars without realizing that some of these people can be wrong or have liberal views on the bible. I often find Christians reading  commentaries more than they read the bible itself. Like I’ve said in my previous post and what was taught to me, when it comes to the word of God, never trust anyone! always verify! Don’t believe someone just because they happen to be a pastor or someone with a Masters or PhD, open up your bibles and verify it yourself, and read from the beginning of the chapter! Commentaries can be wrong but the bible is the true word of God and it can never have errors or contradictions.

[1] Edwin H. Palmer, the five points of Calvinism (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, enlarged ed., 20th prtg. 1999), 44.

[2] Edwin H. Palmer, the five points of Calvinism (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, enlarged ed., 20th prtg. 1999). 42.

[3]  R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 1986), 207.

[4]  John Calvin Institutes 3.23.5

Unconditional Election: Are Calvinists Abusing the Word of God and Serving Two Masters?

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

“For^[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add^[b] to him the plagues that are written in this book; ¹⁹ and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away^[c] his part from the Book^[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”.(Revelations 22:18-19).

This sounds like a very serious punishment doesn’t it? But that’s what it says in the bible and this is exactly what Calvinists are doing. Let look at an example of how Calvinist are doing this.

Most if not all who considers themselves Christians probably know John 3:16 by heart:

 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life(John 3:16).

This is pretty straight forward. In this passage “world” means all of humankind, human or humanity. “Whoever” means whatever person or anyone that believes. There is absolutely no hint or reference to someone being elected before time or predestined to salvation in this verse. Yet somehow Calvinist can interpret the words “world” or “whoever” as “elected”.  If you believe the words “World” and “whosoever” means “elected” then that’s not just a problem with your theology, that’s also a problem with your vocabulary. You can pick up any dictionary in the world and none of them will tell you those words means a group of people that are elected.

Calvinists believes in the idea of unconditional election which teaches how God hand-picks certain people to be saved and condemns others to eternal suffering and he does this with pleasure (John Calvin, Institutes, 3:21:7). So in order to get around passages like John 3:16 they must change the words in the passage to something like this:

 “Because God has loved certain ones and not all, because He has sovereignly and immutably determined that these particular ones will be saved, He sent His Son to die for them, to save them, and not all the world-Edwin H. Palmer”[1]

This is adding and changing things to the bible which the book of revelation states clearly that If anyone adds to these things, God will add^[b] to him the plagues that are written in this book. Yet this is exactly what Calvinist are doing, abusing the word of God like Edwin H. Palmer who was pastor with a T.hd (Doctor of Theology). This is not just a problem with Calvinists but many Christians who would rather believe the theology of people with Master degrees or PhDs instead of listening to Jesus.

John Piper defines Unconditional Elections as “God’s choosing whom to save. It is unconditional in that there is no condition man must meet before God chooses to save him. Man is dead in trespasses and sins. So there is no condition he can meet before God chooses to save him from his deadness”. [2]

What a ridiculous statement. What kind of condition does someone need to be in to receive a FREE gift? John 3:16 is pretty clear that all you have to do is believe.

John Piper continues to write “we were dead to truth, righteousness, peace, happiness, and every other good thing, no more able to respond to God than a cadaver”. [3]

Basically what Piper is saying is that we are dead corpses, and a dead corpse can’t do anything. Unless of course God picks out certain corpses and bring them back to life. But wait, what about all those people in the bible that actively sought out the lord?

Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. (Exodus 33:7)

Therefore he said to Judah, “Let us build these cities and make walls around them, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us, because we have sought the Lord our God; we have sought Him, and He has given us rest on every side.” So they built and prospered. (2 Chronicles 14:7)

In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord; My hand was stretched out in the night without ceasing; My soul refused to be comforted. (Psalms 77:2)

And Here we even have a example of people turning away from the Lord:

“Those who have turned back from following the Lord , And have not sought the Lord , nor inquired of Him.”

I often wonder if Calvinists actually read these verses. If you really believe John Piper who claims “We are no more able to respond God than a cadaver” how do you explain all these people who actively sought the lord? If you really believe God elected these people to seek him then please show me where in the bible it states that?

In his book “The Gospel according to the Apostles” MacArthur writes “The unsaved are dead, incapable of any spiritual activity. Until God quickens us, we have no capacity to respond to Him in Faith[4]

Well this is an odd statement. In fact it’s completely contradictory to many examples where Jesus himself has commended people for their own faith:

Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.” (Matthew 9:29)

And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! (1 Corinthians 15:17)

And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.” (Mark 5:34)

that the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledgment of every good thing which is in you[a] in Christ Jesus. (Philemon 6)

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5)

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” (Mark 2:5)

Wouldn’t all these expression be odd if no one can have faith unless God gives it to them like what MacArthur says? Are these not examples of people performing spiritual activities?  Looking at Philemon 6, are we suppose to believe that God wants us to share our faith to someone that he already predestined to be condemned? That’s like someone drowning in a well and throwing him a rope that’s dangling out of reach and telling him to grab it. It’s a mockery to God’s word. However it’s not surprising that Calvinist would believe such a ridiculous theology since they also believe God takes pleasure in condemning people to hell. And why would Jesus use words like “their faith” and “your faith” if we can’t have faith at all except for the faith that God puts in you? Wouldn’t that technically be God’s faith and not your own?

Lastly as I pointed out in the title of this article. Are Calvinist serving two masters? This comes from the bible passage Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon”. Calvinists will probably answer instantly by saying they are not, but think about it. You may not be serving John Calvin his morning coffee or bringing his ink to write with, but you are spreading his theology which is not biblical hence therefore you are serving him. Calvinist need to ask themselves who they want to serve. John Calvin? John Piper? John MacArthur or Jesus Christ? Like Matthew 6:24 says, you can only choose one.

[1]  Palmer, five points, 50.

[2]  John Piper- Tulip,19

[3]   John Piper- Tulip,19

[4]  John F. MacArthur, Jr., Faith Works: The Gospel According to the Apostles), 64–67

Total Depravity: Do Calvinist Believe We Are Just a Bunch of Puppets on Strings?

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

“No one can seek God unless God chooses/predestination them to”

“Predestination doesn’t mean you don’t have free will”

“Calvinism isn’t against the idea of free will”

These are just some of the  common statements you’ll might hear from Calvinist believers. Before we get into the topic of Total Depravity let look at the meaning of the two words:

Total: constituting or comprising the whole; entire; whole: or complete in extent or degree; absolute; unqualified; utter:

Depravity:  deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good

I think if we put the words together we can come to a conclusion that “Total Depravity” means we are completely depraved from doing what is considered moral or right or proper or good.

Of course the dictionary doesn’t  always give a clear meaning or definition of the words. So in order to get a more clear understanding of what  total depravity is let see how John Calvin defines it:

The mind of man is so completely alienated from the righteousness of God that it conceives, desires, and undertakes everything that is impious, perverse, base, impure, and flagitious. His heart is so thoroughly infected by the poison of sin that it cannot produce anything but what is corrupt; and if at any time men do anything apparently good, yet the mind always remains involved in hypocrisy and deceit, and the heart enslaved by its inward perversity.’ [1]

Doesn’t this sound like we can’t do anything at? One has to ask then, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God? The Calvinist answer would be “He cannot. Therefore God must predestined”[2]. Actually, doesn’t this sound like we have no free will at all?

Usually when I mention that predestination means you don’t have free will to an average Calvinist they’ll tell me that I’m wrong, and I don’t understand Calvinism. On several occasion I get comments about how I’m not a pastor or never been to seminary so I must be ignorant.  Since I’m ignorant about Calvinism let hear from famous Calvinist pastors and what they have to say about the topic of free will:

inasmuch as Adam’s offspring are born with sinful natures, they do not have the ABILITY to choose spiritual good over evil. Consequently, man’s will is no longer free (i.e., free from the dominion of sin) as Adam’s will was free before the fall- David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas[3]

The Bible stresses the total inability of fallen man to respond to the things of God; he is not able to do so. This is what the Calvinist refers to as total depravity.”- Talbot and Crampton, [4]

Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen…. He has fore-ordained everything “after the counsel of his will” the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist—even sin–Edwin Palmer

“God does not foreknow the free decisions of people to believe in him because there aren’t any such free decisions to know-John Piper[6]

What do all these authors have in common? Other than being Calvinists, they all deny the notion of free will. John Piper, a pastor and a famous author that  many Christians know about and look up to admits himself that he doesn’t believe in free will. It worries me to  see what kind of leaders Christians are following these days, because it’s definitely not Jesus

Like I mentioned in my previous article, Christians should only follow the teachings of Jesus and no one else, and the bible shows us clearly people have free will. Read the following passages:

If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword”; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.( Isaiah 1:19-20)

If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. (John 7:17)

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” (Act:8:37)

Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the keeper of the East Gate, was over the freewill offerings to God, to distribute the offerings of the Lord and the most holy things. (2 Chronicles 31:14)

“When leaders lead in Israel, When the people willingly offer themselves, Bless the Lord ! (Judges 5:2)

Afterwards they  offered the regular burnt offering, and those for New Moons and for all the appointed feasts of the Lord that were consecrated, and those of everyone who willingly offered a freewill offering to the Lord (Erza 3:5)

Then she made a vow and said, “O Lord of hosts, if You will indeed look on the affliction of Your maidservant and remember me, and not forget Your maidservant, but will give Your maidservant a male child, then I will give him to the Lord all the days of his life, and no razor shall come upon his head.” (1 Samuel 1:11)

In fact, we even have an example of how people use their free will to turn away from God:

For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water…( 2 Peter 3:5)

As you can see the bible gives us numerous examples of people practicing their free will. Now a Calvinist would argue “Maybe God only gave these individuals the ability of free will and not others” but where in the bible does it say this? As Christians every time we make a statement about God it should always be supported by the bible and nothing else.

After reading these passages about people practicing free will, how exactly can Calvinist deny it? I’ll conclude this article by giving Calvinist believers three suggestions when reading the bible. This was taught to be by dear friend, pastor, and a mentor that I have great respect for:

1. Get rid of presuppositions and pulpit theology
2. words have meaning! there is one right interpretation. Do away with “yes, that’s right too” and “what does this mean to you”?
3. Remember that the primary author is God, who the Bible for all Christians in all generations. Do not focus on the intention of the human author writing to his original audience.

[1] Calvin’s Institute Book II: V, 19)

[2] http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

[3] David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas “The Five Points of Calvinism”

[4] (Talbot and Crampton, Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism, p. 20)

[5] (Edwin Palmer, five points, 24–25).

[6] John Piper- Tulip,22

Are Calvinists Following the Beliefs of a Serial Killer, Mass Murderer and a Terrorist?

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

It’s sad that many Calvinists that I’ve encounter have absolutely no idea who John Calvin was. They know him by name and as the person who founded the idea of Calvinism but they don’t actually know what kind of person he was.

I often wonder how someone who identify themselves as a Christian can tell me many stories about Jesus and what kind of person he was, but when someone identify themselves as a Calvinist and I ask them to tell me a little about John Calvin, the only thing they can give me is that he was the person who founded Calvinism. I mean wouldn’t it be baffling if someone told you they were Christians but couldn’t tell you one single thing about Jesus? If Calvinist followers today would pick up a book and do a little research on their spiritual leader they would know that they’re following the beliefs of a serial killer, mass murderer and a terrorist.

Before I get into details about how John Calvin was a serial killer, mass murderer and a terrorist, lets look at the definition of each:

1.Serial Killer: A person who murders three or more people with the murders taking place over more than a month between them

2. Mass Murderer: A person who kills several or numerous  victims in a single incident or A person, especially a political or military leader, who is responsible for the death of many individuals

3. Terrorist:  A person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon or a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells

Now that we have these definitions lets take a look at the actions of John Calvin and how well he fits into these terms.

Laws and facts about Geneva Under Calvin’s Authority:

* Each household had to attend Sunday morning services. If there was preaching on weekdays, all had to attend also. (There were only a few exceptions, and Calvin preached three to four times a week.)

* If a person came to the service after the sermon had begun, he was warned. If he continued, he would have to pay a fine.

* Heresy was regarded as an insult to God and treason to the state and was punished by death.

* Witchcraft was a capital crime. In one year, 14 alleged witches were sent to the stake on the charge that they persuaded Satan to afflict Geneva with the plague.

* Clergy were to abstain from hunting, gambling, feasting, commerce, secular amusements, and had to accept annual visitations and moral scrutiny by church superiors.

* Gambling, card-playing, frequenting taverns, dancing, indecent or irreligious songs, immodesty in dress were all prohibited.

* The allowable color and quantity of clothing and the number of dishes permissible at a meal were specified by law.

* A woman was jailed for arranging her hair to an “immoral height.”

* Children were to be named after Old Testament characters. A rebellious father served four days in prison for insisting on naming his son Claude instead of Abraham.

* To speak disrespectfully of Calvin or the clergy was a crime. A first violation was punished by a reprimand. Further violations with fines. Persistent violations were met with imprisonment or banishment.

* Fornication was punished by exile or drowning.

* Adultery, blasphemy, and idolatry was punished with death.

* In the year 1558-1559, there were 414 prosecutions for moral offenses.

* As everywhere in the 16th century, torture was often used to obtain confessions or evidence.

* Between 1542-1564, there were 76 banishments. The total population of Geneva then was 20,000.

* Calvin’s own step-daughter and son-in-law were among those condemned for adultery and executed.

* In Geneva, there was little distinction between religion and morality. The existing records of the Council for this period reveal a high percentage of illegitimate children, abandoned infants, forced marriages, and sentences of death. [1]

* In one case, a child was beheaded for striking his parents. [2] (Following Old Testament Mosaic law, Calvin believed it was scriptural to execute rebellious children and those who commit adultery.) [2a]

* During a period of 17 years when Calvin was leading Geneva, there were 139 recorded executions in the city. [3]

*Burned a man (Michael Servetus) alive for disagreeing with his theology. [4]

I’m not a mathematician but I know 139 is a much bigger number than 3, and when it comes to the number of murders committed it’s enough to be labeled a serial killer and a mass murderer. The way these executions were carried out definitely made him a terrorist. In fact with these gruesome historical details I think it’s safe to say he was also a psychopath.

A few questions I leave with Calvinists believers:

1.  If Jesus was someone who ruled with a sword or an iron hand, would you still follow him?

2. Do you think God approved of Calvin’s tactics on imposing his faith on others?

3. What is your idea of a good spiritual leader and do you think John Calvin was one?

I would like to conclude and point out that nowhere in this article you’ll see me use the term “Calvinist Christians” instead I use words like “Calvinist” or “Calvinist followers”, this is because I don’t think Calvinists are Christians, it pains to say something like this because I know there are decent people who are Calvinist, people that I  consider friends and even brothers and sisters, but to me a Christian is someone who follows the teaching of Jesus and no one else. not Arminius, not Luther, not Calvin but Jesus only.

[1] All of the above information about Geneva can be found in Will Durant, The Reformation, pp. 472-476. Durant cites his sources. See also Calvin’s Geneva: An Experiment in Christian Theocracy – published in The Radical Resurgence andCalvin’s Geneva: Applied Critical Thinking – published in The Radical Resurgence

[2] Fear of the Word by Eli Oboler, pp. 60-62.

[2a] See http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.com/2012/03/execution-of-child-and-adulterers-in.html

[3] The Church Polity of John Calvin by Harro Hopfl, p. 136.

[4] Civilization VI: 484  by Will Durant

JC (Christ) vs JC (Calvin): Who speaks the true word of God?

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

Every time I begin a discussion with Calvinist believers I always start with having two books placed on the table. One is the bible and the other is the “Institutes of the Christian Religion”. I then ask the Calvinist believer to put their hand on the book they think is the true word of God. This is not meant to be a trap, I just want to be sure that the person I’m debating with is on the same page and we both agree that the bible is the true word of God. To this day I haven’t had one person put their hand on Calvin’s book.

After having them place their hand on the bible and agreeing that it is the true word of God, I ask if they agree since they believe the bible is the true word of God that it can absolutely have no errors or contradictions. So far they all agree.

The following is the three most common questions I always pose to Calvinist believers. The most common retaliation I get from Calvinists is “you don’t understand the idea of Calvinism” or “You don’t understand the concept of predestination”. So in order to avoid any misunderstandings that I may have I will be taking quotes both directly from Calvin’s “Institute of the Christian Religion” and The Bible.

1. Does God take pleasure in sending people to hell? The answer I get to this question is always “no”.  This is answer John Calvin gives:

“We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction” (John Calvin, “Institutes,” 3:21:7)

“Those therefore whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children.” (John Calvin, “Institutes,” 3:23:1)

This is the answer the bible gives:

I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

2. Does salvation come first or does faith? I noticed that after asking them the first  question the Calvinist are somewhat hesitant to answer this question so I proceed to show them what John Calvin’s answer is:

“If what I teach is true, that those who perish are destined to death by the eternal good pleasure of God, though the reason does not appear, then they are not found but made worthy of destruction…The eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam he decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined…God chose out of the condemned race of Adam those whom he pleased and reprobated whom he willed.” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 8:5).

As you can see here Calvin believes that God has already worked out everything before hand, including who will be saved and who will be condemned. It’s very clear that he believes that salvation come before faith.

This is the bible’s answer to the question:

 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luke 8:12)

 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household (Acts 16:31)

 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,^[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, ² by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. (1 Timothy 1:16)

3. If God has already knows who will be saved and who will be condemned, will he try and reason with EVERYONE to repent? The Calvinists that I’ve encountered have all said yes. However I don’t see how that makes sense. If God has already set his mind or predestined someone to be condemned why would he reason with that person? Isn’t that equivalent to preaching to a brick wall?  In fact since he supposedly know who’s going to be  saved and who’s going to be condemned. why reason at all?

The bible clearly teaches us that God reasons with people

Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

By this point, most of the Calvinist believers I’ve encounter always say something like “I don’t agree with everything Calvinism teaches” or “I don’t agree with everything John Calvin teaches”. This also doesn’t work, that’s like saying say “I’m a Christian but I don’t agree with everything Jesus teaches”.

A question I pose to Calvinist believers  refers to Luke 2:10:

Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.

If God only sent Jesus to die for the elect, then how is that “Good tidings of great joy which will be to ALL people?

Argument Against Calvinism and the Misconception of Predestination

© 2015 by Clement Li. All Rights Reserved.

I just spent the last few weeks reading different bibles and bible commentaries for hours and hours .

The reason why I’m writing this isn’t because I want to show off or imply that I’m such a great person and boast about how such a “good” Christian I am. No, I’m far from being good, and I’m a sinner like everyone else. The reason why I write this is because I want to share something that I learned.

I am aware that some of the things I’m about to share may offend some readers. Every night I pray to God that I can share my wisdom with others and be protected from persecution. Though I hope to still be protected from persecution I came to accept that the truth will always offend those who do not want to hear it, but to the growing believer, it is life, and I believe myself to be a growing believer in Christ.

Many of you who know me are aware that I am VERY anti-Calvinist.  I don’t believe in unconditional election.  Why? The short answer is because I believe faith is our responsibility. The long answer is because I think it’s ridiculous for Christians to believe that Jesus died only for a elected group of people, which if you think about it defeats the whole point of Ezekiel 33:11 where it says ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.’”

If Jesus died for the so called “elect”, then what’s the point of praying for your friends and family? Basically, if God has already predestined who’s going to be saved or not, then there’s no point of appealing to God since he’s already decided and not very likely to change his mind.

Calvinist always brings up Romans 8:29 and 9:14-24. 8:29 says “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren”.  Yes, God knew who was going to be saved and those who weren’t, but it DOESN’T mean they were predestined to be saved. This verse is saying  is that  God knew who was going to be saved but people have to remember that you can ONLY be saved through faith.  And those who are saved are PREDESTINED TO BE CHRIST LIKE.

The next passage that I find Calvinist use to defend their philosophy is Romans 9:12-24:

 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”^[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”^[b]

¹⁴ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!¹⁵ For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”^[c] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. ¹⁷ For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”^[d] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

¹⁹ You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” ²⁰ But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”²¹ Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

²² What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,²³ and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, ²⁴ even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Firstly I think a lot of people are confused with the verse “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”. “Hated” in this verse is not an emotional feeling but means “less preferred”. NO! God did not choose Jacob to be saved and Easu to be condemned, he simply chose Jacob to carry out God’s purpose instead of Easu.

Why did God choose Jacob and not Easu? God chose Jacob because he foreknew that he was going to be a man of faith. Easu however was a profane person (Hebrews 12:16), he despised his birthright and sold it to Jacob for one meal. (Gen: 25:34)  Jacob was not exactly the greatest person alive, but he eventually trusted God and relied on God, whereas Easu disregarded God and trusted only himself. It was Jacob’s DECISION to trust God, and it was Easu’s DECISION to disregard God. Easu afterward regretted what he did but found no room for repentance because he selfishly just wanted God’s blessing, but he did not want God. (Hebrews 12:17)

Calvinist  believe in total depravity and argues that Romans 9 teaches exactly that. Total depravity is that all are enfolded in sin and unable to do anything at all pleasing to God. They believe no one is born good or evil, just that some were created to be saved and others to be sent to hell, and anything we do does not affect our salvation. This is not true and far away from the truth. Yes, it is true that God has hardened some people’s heart (v18), but it is because the sinners hardened their own hearts first!  Paul mentions an example here about the pharaoh of exodus, before his heart was hardened by God, the pharaoh was already full of sin and hardening his own heart (Exodus 8:15, 32).

When we continue to sin and hardened our own hearts, God will hardened our hearts even more to make us vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22). If  we continue seeking His glory, God will make us vessels of mercy. He has every right to do so, hence the verse “Does not the potter have power of the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor” (v21). Additional to this, the bible also says  “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. ²¹ Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work”. (2 Timothy 2:20-21).

You may ask why God would  choose to show mercy to some and not others and why would He intentionally hardened someone’s heart. First I think we should remember that God doesn’t owe us salvation, and if God were not free to show His mercy no one would be blessed, for no one deserves his grace. He hardened people’s heart and makes them a vessel of wrath to show his mercy is conditional, and that the only way we can receive his grace is faith through Him. God has every right to harden someone’s heart to show the consequences of rejecting him like the pharaoh of exodus. If we continue to sin even after being made known of Him he will harden our hearts because we hardened it first.

I was also asked about the book of Joshua, and why God decided to purge the people of Canaan such as the Amorites without giving them a chance to repent. Yes, God decided to purge Canaan, because people there were full of sin, but they had plenty of chances to repent, over 400 years to be more specific. The sin of the Amorites was already mentioned in Genesis 15:16 to Abraham, and during that time to Joshua’s conquest of Canaan was a span of over 400 years. The sins of the Amorites included  adultery, child sacrifices, homosexuality and bestiality (Leviticus 18:20-24)

Some argue that maybe the Amorites and the people in Canaan didn’t get the chance to hear about God. This is also untrue. In Joshua 2:8-13, we learn about a woman name Rahab who was living in Canaan  and she repented, had faith in the lord and was spared.  in 2:8-13 it says ““Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof, ⁹ and said to the men: “I know that the Lord has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. ¹⁰ For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. ¹¹ And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath. ¹² Now therefore, I beg you, swear to me by the Lord, since I have shown you kindness, that you also will show kindness to my father’s house, and give me a true token, ¹³ and spare my father, my mother, my brothers, my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death.”  So clearly people in Canaan have heard about God, and had plenty of chances to repent.

Another passage in Joshua also tells that a  city of people called the Gibeonites who were very well known in Canaan (including the Amorites), but instead of joining the Amorites in their sin they decided to make a covenant with Joshua and was spared.  in Joshua 9:8b-12 Joshua asked them who they were and where they come from, the Gibeonites replied  “From a very far country your servants have come, because of the name of the Lord your God; for we have heard of His fame, and all that He did in Egypt, 10 and all that He did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan—to Sihon king of Heshbon, and Og king of Bashan, who was at Ashtaroth. 11 Therefore our elders and ALL the inhabitants of our country spoke to us, saying, ‘Take provisions with you for the journey, and go to meet them, and say to them, “We are your servants; now therefore, make a covenant with us.”’.  Later in the verses it was revealed that the Gibeonites lied about where they came from (v24),  they didn’t come from a country far away but from a close neighbouring city (very known to the Amorites). So here again shows that not only did the Amorites heard about God, his wrath and the chances He gave to repent, but the WHOLE country of Canaan heard about it.

Another argument that I heard from a Calvinist is that once you’re saved you cannot be unsaved or lose your salvation. However, in Romans 11:19-25 it reads You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”²⁰ Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. ²¹ For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. ²² Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,^[a] If you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. ²³ And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. ²⁴ For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

²⁵ For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”. This passage is referring to  Christian believers, and  how their salvation was lost (Branches broken off from olive trees) BECAUSE of their disobedient, rejection and unbelief. Those who believe are grafted in because they put their faith in God, however there is still a potential of being cut off if he does not continue in God’s goodness.

I am in many ways flawed, I know I am not the best person let alone the best Christian in the world, but I do not believe God made me flawed, I am flawed because I chose to sin, however I believe one of God’s greatest gift to mankind is free will and I CHOSE  to have faith in Him, God didn’t make me repent, I CHOSE to repent, and I believe he gives everyone a chance to repent and declare faith in Him.